Crazy stuff and what is the rule

Questions about Skat rules

Crazy stuff and what is the rule

Postby skatlink1 » 08 Dec 2011 11:55

We have all had some crazy things happened to us while playing skat.Join me in posting them and then writing down what was the ruling called.

I am going to start with the North American championships . We just start the round first hand perfect null overt,second hand all pass in. I deal the 3rd hand and for the life of me I can not get out a good deal.we count the cards 31, we can not find the 32 card. We call a ref for new cards only have 31 cards.As we put the deck back in the old box we find the 32rd card. we laugh we just played some skat with 31 cards. Does the first player get to keep his null overt. No, we had to start the block fresh,if we would have played 5 games and started a new block then yes all the games in the first block would have counted.

Something like this happened at our club yrs later. this group of players played 18 hands before they realized that they had 2 spade 8's in the deck. They got a new deck and all the games up till then counted,they played a 1/2 a list with a flawed deck un real.
skatlink1
 
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Re: Crazy stuff and what is the rule

Postby skatlink1 » 05 Sep 2013 13:15

Here is a good one I had alittle fun as a Ref with this one.We are playing in the north American tournament in Toronto.
I get called to the table
An American player picks up the skat,finds excellent and then lays his cards on the table and says grand hand Schneider ,Schwartz .
Funny that all 4 players didn't know what the real ruling is in this case ,Its called an illegal announcement.
So I thought I would have some fun with this one. I said ok buddy this is Canada ,we don't pull these kind of tricks here.
That is an illegal announcement .I am going to have to penalize you . I am going to take away your hand announcement iam going to take away your Schneider announcement and your Schwartz announcement ,and a yellow card.
But I am going to award you a win with 4 grand ,Schneider and Schwartz 168 good pts.and don't try to get free announcements again.
they all looked at me funny and 2 of them came to me later and thanked me for giving him the win.
the Skat rules can be weird at times and often misinterpreted, and some mean players try to twist the rules and bad ref's are hasty to give a loss to the player.
the rules for most are to keep the flow of play and to prevent cheating .sloppy play are bad habits and are usually penalized.
discarding 1 or 3
not following suit
bad or no announcements
and things like dealing ,cards falling or exposing, and out of turn actions.
these are all the tricks of cheaters, and the bad habits of sloppy play, or not paying attention.
were at all possible we don't really want to penalize the beginner or inexperienced player. But on the same hand we want you to pay attention ,don't be sloppy and don't cheat.
this is why if a good player does an infraction you should still call a ref, oops I lost isn't good enough, you lost and you should be warned not to do it again.
Its too bad that the beginners get caught up in the rulings, but they have to learn. not only to clean up their play but to watch for others trying to pull a fast one.
Many ref's just call it according to the book ,and really they have too.Just because all the information on the table isn't always true , intentions are usually the key and for most ref's coming to the scene after the fact and listening to the players, its hard to make a call on the players true intentions. Was it sloppy was it trying to get away with something, wanting to cause confusion ,or just an honest mistake, or even just didn't know better.
I know most players and Iam fairly good at reading a players intentions,and I know which guys would pull a fast one.so often my rulings are very good and fair.The top ref calls me a rule bender .but if I can find away to make the players continue play without penalties I do try because I truly believe here in NA we have mostly honest players and in most cases the mistake was made because of sloppy play.The funny thing is no matter how many times you penalise the sloppy players they do it over and over again.
Back to the ruling above,the rule states you are not allowed to announce Hand or any other extra multipliers after you have picked up the skat.
So even what he did is not allowed ,doesn't always mean its penalized.here if he announces grand hand and then picks up the cards he loses ,what he did is just a improper announcement. Its like you want to play clubs at 20 and you say spades, you do not lose you just have to play spades and your only going to get spades written down.
Here he can not play hand enymore(he's looked),but by laying his hand down and saying Schneider ,Schwartz he does have to play you Schneider Schwartz.
How many times have we bid a diamonds without 4 to 24,pick up and find the black jack,would be nice to play diamonds hand now,but you don't lose at this point unless you give up,you still have a chance to try and play them Schneider. So the Only way the American player would have lost is if he had bid 170. or gave off a trick. Shortening the hand improperly.
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Re: Crazy stuff and what is the rule

Postby skatlink1 » 20 May 2015 12:18

This happened 2 x in the states this year to me , both hands very similar
:sj :hj :s10 :sk :sq :s9 :s7 :cj :ha :h10
:cj :sj :hj :dj :sk :sq :s9 :s8 :ha :da
Both times I get called to the table as a ref.Both times forehand has laid this hand on the table and announced spades overt.
I was asked is this game legal,is he allowed to play this, and what is it worth.
What I did in both causes was kinda funny,as in my eyes these are both big grand hands.I reached into my pocket and and gave the player a dollar and said thank you here is a dollar because I have never seen one before. this is a legal spades overt and there is such a game.x out all the blocks on the list like you would a grand overt and count the multipliers accordingly. With 3 play 4,hand 5,schneider 6, Schneider announced 7,schwartz 8,schwartz announced 9 and open 10=110pts
Grand hand Schneider announced is 168pts and that is why I probably have never seen a spades overt.
I have heard of the second scenario and then the ace 10 was in the skat to boot,with 10 overt,17 x 11, I wont even do the math as the grand is still worth more.
Only in America
There probably is a time and place to play a colour overt.I just don't know when or would even recognize it,so if you see one play this game give them a dollar and say thanks for the experience
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Re: Crazy stuff and what is the rule

Postby Mike Tobias » 21 May 2015 15:21

There probably is a time and place to play a colour overt.I just don't know when or would even recognize it,so if you see one play this game give them a dollar and say thanks for the experience


How about:

:cj :sj :hj :dj :cq :c9 :c8 :sa :s10 :sk
0
Clubs ouvert is worth 132. Grand Hand is 144 (168 if you make schneider), but it's also loseable. If the remaining clubs are all in one hand, and the other defender can smear two Aces and a 10, the Grand Hand loses. For what might only be a difference of 12pts, I think I'd play the Clubs ouvert.
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Re: Crazy stuff and what is the rule

Postby skatlink1 » 25 May 2015 12:15

Thank you Mike good reply.
first clubs is the best overt just because at 12pts the multipliers do add up quickly, and get very close to a grand. and your right always look for risk verses reward.
your right the grand can be lost and on top of that the defense doesn't even have to be that talented. so very little degree of difficulty on the defensive scale.
In forehand I would give it an 80% winner and in middle or backhand even more. In back hand this grand is over 90% winner. you will have to be very unlucky to lose this hand in backhand as you still can win even if it sits bad. you clubs overt is only 100% winner in forehand, bad split and your clubs is also losable in middle or backhand and surprisingly in many way other than having 4 clubs in one hand,all the spades in one hand is obvious, but in middle hand all of either suit in forehand will be dangerous . Position is a big key to this hand.so I would bid this hand out first just to see if bad distribution is in play, then look at my position. I take what kind of finds in the grand hand make my hand un losable into consideration And then finally look at my score and standings in the tournament. When you look at all the factors your risk reward is very minimal .So only in forehand would I recommend playing clubs overt instead of a grand hand.If you want to play safe and your in middle or backhand pick up the skat and play grand,any club ,any ace, any spade any little card makes your grand 100% even the 2 10,s make your hand almost as good as the clubs overt, so out of 22 cards 18 are good which is a 96% chance of finding perfect.plus chances of Schneider.
It really makes you think when you put all the factors together.
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Re: Crazy stuff and what is the rule

Postby Mike Tobias » 26 May 2015 05:01

My bad, I did mean to say in Forehand: in any other position it's more likely to lose than the Grand Hand is.

However, the Grand Hand is less likely to lose than I thought. If I've gotten my sums right, the chance of one defender holding CA,C10,CK,C7 (or the C7 being in the Skat) and the other holding both red Aces and at least one 10, is only about 1.66%. The Grand Hand is therefore unloseable in any position, against perfect defence, 59 times out of 60, making it the better percentage play. Even ignoring the possibility of Schneider:

59 wins (12pts more than the ouvert)) +708
1 loss (132+288+50+50 less than the bouvert) -520

Of course, losing the GH will cost you the tournament, sacrificing 12pts probably won't.
Mike Tobias
 
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